Let's Talk about Olaf

Olafの改善案について話し合いを行うスレッドです。
13/07/04 - 1:40 まとめ追加。


Let's Talk about Olaf
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3619573

まとめ

- Olafの問題点

• チャンピオンのポテンシャルとそれを引き出すプレイヤースキルの格差
• Vicious StrikeとRagnarokの性能と使用する状況のミスマッチ
• アイテムビルドがCDRとHealthに偏重

- ユーザーの意見を取り入れた上での変更方針など

Berserker Rage - Passive

Max Healthの10-30%で最大となるようにHealthの減少率に対するAttack Speedの増加比率を変更

Undertow - Q

機動力のないOlafにとって恒久的なSlowは必要。
偵察や足元に投げて回収するということが出来る点では少し過剰な強さなので変更するかもしれない。
投げる→拾う→投げるはテーマとしては素晴らしい。

Vicious Strike - W

変更が必要なスキル。Laning Phaseの際にHealthを保ったまま、長時間滞在できるように変更。

Reckless Swing - E

Laning Phaseでユーザーから指摘された問題点はあるものの概ね良好。

Ragnarok - R

Olafの象徴。AR Penではなく、別のステータスを検討中。

Mana

Manaというリソースを削除するとUndertowで問題が生じるため削除は難しい。
Ragnarokからは削除、Vicious StrikeのManaは大幅減少。


以下原文。


Posted by SmashGizmo

Right now we are not looking at a full scale rework of Olaf (think Karma), but rather a refactor (think Kha'Zix). What this means is that we're sticking with the core skills of the kit and trying to solve the problems with the character through shifting mechanics rather than redoing skills.

As his kit is not getting rework levels of change, Olaf will not be getting a gap closer. While I get the knee-jerk reaction that he needs a gap closer, I think it's important to realize that his lack of one is a crucial component to defining Olaf's weaknesses and making a CC-immunity not completely stifling to play against.

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posted by Phreak

What makes Olaf cool / fun?
I tend to be more gameplay driven, so this is one in the same for me

To me, it's the ability to just go ape**** on people. Attack speed buff + life steal + Undertow on a .25 second cooldown. The ability to just outright win when I shouldn't because I can clutch in the right circumstances.

What's miserable playing against Olaf?
The fact that I can't dent him. He removes my CC, just walks at me, and nothing I do will matter. I'm just destined to die if I'm weaker than him.

What role does Olaf fill in your mind?
Right now, I feel he fills a generic bruiser front line role. He's a big dude who does pretty decent damage and is hard to remove. Can dive if needed.

However, I'd like to see him more damage-based. I have these cool attack speed/ad scaling abilities, but I just build Warmogs to do my job. There's really no reason for me to build damage since I kill two birds with one stone via health items. Even just having the option would be nice.

Is Olaf a Top Laner or a Jungler?
I actually really liked the idea of him as a jungler, and was one of my favorites. But I guess I'm biased :P

What do you want to build on Olaf?
I don't mind building health since I'm melee, but I want to get items like Youmuu's and Maw of Malmortius and be able to go crazy in short bursts.


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Posted by SmashGizmo

Just wanted to say 2 quick things before writing up another large response.

1. The "Do you view Olaf as a Top Laner or a Jungler?" question is not meant to make you guys think that we strictly think of characters in terms of only one proper role nor is it meaning to imply that I will be aiming my refactor at succeeding at one role over the other necessarily. I simply want as much information as possible on how players identify the character and how that character fits into the standard metagame is an important piece of this (IMO).

2. I'm seeing a lot of comments about how cool Olaf is as THE berserker in LoL, specifically in terms of the near death rage. I'm curious to hear some thoughts about Olaf and Tryndamere differ in your minds in this regard, as they're both tapping pretty heavily into the berserker fantasy. Does Olaf fill this role better or worse for you and why?


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posted by Riot Morgageddon

Morgageddon wonders what the single strongest weakness to Olaf is...

OPINION STARTING

His Q is interesting. It's a cooldown reducing axe that can be used early (with mana) to chase someone down and force them out of lane. Mid game, if you have won or lost a lane, it allows you to attempt to farm if you are zoned by a stronger foe or a ranged top. I'm not sure how best to change this to enable a stronger Olaf besides his W.

His W is rather lackluster early levels, and late levels usually has enough hp and regen that it's not quite as strong or useful feeling but for returning hp between skirmishes. I would posit changing his W into an aura, where if he performs damage as auto attacks he still heals, but can also AoE absorb health by damage done to enemies. This allows him to use his W and Q in lane to gain hp back from range if he's being zoned hard, which is a huge weakness to his kit currently.

His E is a staple of being Olaf. It allows him to trade with almost any dueler effectively and efficiently, as well as eliminating mages or adcs.

His R allows Olaf to get to anyone in the back line and eliminate them, providing he has enough health and time to stack his full combo, or if they've already taken a little bit of damage. Perhaps, being an 'all-in' champion, his ultimate could also increase his movement speed if he's running at an enemy, or the lower Olaf's health is. This again would play into his 'all-in' technique and be better for him to chase enemies down directly, or if he's at lower health. Combined with his passive to increase his attack speed as he's low, it could be good, or horribly overpowered.

TL;DR

Make his W also heal from his Q throws
Make his R allow increased speed the lower he is or if he is running at enemies.

OPINION ENDING


* Morgageddon oops'd.

Well color me embarrassed, I forgot about the spell vamp component of W -_-

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posted by Phreak 

Originally Posted by Riot Morgageddon

Morgageddon oops'd.

Well color me embarrassed, I forgot about the spell vamp component of W -_-

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooob.

Though to be fair, the spell vamp is 1/3 effectiveness due to Q being an AoE ability.


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posted by Riot Morgageddon


Morgageddon tries to redeem himself!

The only issue with a rage mechanic Olaf is that he'd need a major change to his W for a sort of self heal, due to the fact that as it is, he wouldn't sustain enough to counter his need to push. Granted, his Q could be used to engage/disengage but it's nowhere near as useful as Tryn's mocking shout (slow and AD reduction) and his spin to win escape, Olaf only has a slow to escape with, nowhere near the same mobility.



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posted by Riot Morgageddon

Morgageddon wonders...

Originally Posted by Kopikatsu View Post
Which do you prefer, though? Do you think that it would be worth looking into an alternative resource for Olaf?

I almost think a health cost would make more sense for Olaf: retool into all health costs, thereby making health regen and vamp great items for him from the get go.

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Posted by SmashGizmo

Let's start with a rough statement of my high level goals for Olaf changes.

1. Reduce the disparity between high skill level power and low skill level power on the character.

The biggest reason Olaf is where he is now is that he was sitting below a 50% winrate when we nerfed him, despite being among the top 4 competitive picks for a staggeringly long period of time. The simple fact of the matter is that pro players are exceptionally good at optimizing everything about Olaf and our average player is not. While having a high skill cap is typically a good thing for champions, it's best when the skill differential is in aspects of the game that are noticeable. Take Lee Sin for example. Our average player is no inSec, but when they watch inSec, they see how he uses his skills quickly and flawlessly and they immediately understand what makes him so successful with the champion and how they need to improve. With Olaf, the pro level optimizations largely come from difficult to see places, namely in optimizing the usage of his steroids, ghost usage, build order, pre-teamfight positioning, teamfight coordination and Undertow usage. Basically, it would be great if learning to play the wild berserker who's entire goal in life is to go ape**** on the opposing carry wasn't so hard and mathy.

2. Clear up the use cases for Vicious Strikes and Ragnarok.

This goes hand in hand with goal 1, but I think it's important to point out specifically. In my research on the current iteration of Olaf, I found myself frequently frustrated by the assortment of stats on both Vicious Strikes and Ragnarok. It doesn't seem to make sense that you get Armor Penetration when Ragnarok is active, as this creates weird incentives on the ability that make you want to cast it as soon as you start hitting someone, rather than using it to wade through CC effects. Vicious Strikes suffers from a lack of clarity in when I want to use it (before I Q to get bonus AD for the ratio? before I E to spell vamp off it? only when I'm low to use the lifesteal with Berserker Rage?). Clearing up what these buttons are meant to do should really help the usability on the character which should go a long way to solving problem 1, as well as generally making them more viscerally satisfying.

3. Clear up Olaf's itemization options.

This thread has confirmed my suspicions that people are generally pretty confused about what they want to build on Olaf. Most people seem to be onto HP and CDR as the optimal current builds, but there's also a large segment of people who want to build offensive items on the character ranging from 1-2 offensive item splashes to full balls out offensive builds. While I have no delusions about making offensive builds competitively viable on a Melee with no gap closer, I also don't want our non-pro players to feel bad about building swords and axes on a berserker... that just feels like what I should be building and it shouldn't feel as awful to do it as it does right now. I personally think it would be thematically awesome if people could enjoy a ravenous hydra + black cleaver on Olaf and just roleplay having 2 super badass axes through their build (again, with no delusions about the competitive viability of such a build).

4. Overall buff to the character.

Competitive vs. noncompetitive disparity aside, Olaf's in a pretty poor spot right now and he straight up needs a buff. The changes are not a success if they do not make Olaf more powerful than he is now. Obvious, I know, but considering his current state, I consider it irresponsible to not list this as a goal.

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That being said, let's run through the kit and what I've gathered from your feedback in here along with my own thoughts on Olaf's abilities.

Berserker Rage
I'm seeing a small number of complaints about this ability being hidden power within Olaf's kit, but most people seem to see this as a visceral representation of Olaf's berserker nature and a key piece to some of the high points of the kit (outlasting fights on a sliver of health through this + lifesteal). I tend to agree with the latter line of thinking and am a rather large fan of this passive. I would like to make a minor tweak to this ability to clear up it's optimization by putting a floor on how low your HP % can go to still gain AS, as I think it feels like a false promise to have the ability scale all the way down to 1 HP. This sort of scaling can work for Tryndamere's Bloodlust, as he realistically does get to live at 1 HP routinely, but I think Berserker Rage should be hitting it's optimization somewhere around 10-30% max HP (tbd based on testing).

Undertow
Most people in here seem to find Undertow's play pattern very cool and central to how Olaf functions but there also seem to be a number of people who point out how the potential perma-slow is one of the most frustrating pieces of Olaf's kit. I think the potential for a perma-slow is crucial to Olaf's ability to function in the game today, as he has no innate mobility and needs to function in melee range of his opponents. I think there are some superfluous bits of power on this ability, namely in terms of it's value for scouting, and it's power in the burst case due to repeatedly throwing the axe right at your feet and I'll be trying some experimental changes to solve these issues without disrupting the core chasing pattern of "throw axe -> chase after axe -> pick up axe -> throw axe again -> repeat" (which I believe is a thematically awesome pattern that plays very well in game).

Vicious Strikes
This is by far the least commented on skill through all of your feedback and it seems like very mixed feedback. As I mentioned in my goals, I think the use case on this ability is a bit of a nightmare and at the end of the day I really want to clarify and emphasize that rather than trying to solve this ability through raw power. To me, Vicious Strikes is at its coolest when it's enabling Olaf's survival and brawling in prolonged fights in conjunction with Berserker Rage, so my changes to this ability will be aimed at emphasizing this case and trying to deemphasize its power in terms of staying topped off on health throughout the laning phase.

Reckless Swing
Feedback in the thread seems to mostly be positive on this ability, though it's also pointed out as a playing against frustration point. While I agree that this ability can be very binary in terms of laning trades, my feeling is that this ability is exactly what Olaf holistically needs out of his E slot and as such I don't have any intentions on touching this at first. I also think there's a strong case to be made that the frustration of getting outtraded at Melee range is outweighed by the satisfaction Olaf players get from using Reckless Swing.

Ragnarok
The hands-down most Olaf-defining aspect of Olaf's kit. Your feedback on this is mostly positive because of the Juggernaut vibes you get using the ability and the strong thematic connection to being so engrossed in combat that you cannot be stopped. Some expressed concerns about the frustration from the opposing end of Ragnarok, but the resounding voice in here is saying that this is what makes Olaf Olaf. And I agree, but as I've stated in the goals, I believe that Ragnarok's use case is currently muddied by the Armor Pen. In this light, I'm going to be exploring options for a replacement stat on Ragnarok that helps Olaf during the phase of the fight when he's wading through CC effects rather than the phase of the fight when he's hitting people with physical damage.

All that said, I wanted to touch on one more thing before I head off to bed...

Mana
I'm seeing a fair number of suggestions in here discussing how they're frustrated at being oom with Olaf and how something like a fury system or straight health cost system would further drive the themes of the character home. I don't see myself taking this approach, as I think Mana is an essential gate to Olaf's ability to otherwise endlessly throw axes. That being said, I'm strongly considering stripping the mana cost entirely from Ragnarok and drastically reducing it on Vicious Strikes. To me, Olaf's steroids should be Cooldown gated, while his Undertow needs to be resource gated due to the Cooldown refresh mechanics on it.

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Anywho, it is now 1 AM and I'm getting too tired to keep going in here so I'm calling it for the night. I will come back tomorrow and try to finish reading through all the comments when I have time throughout the day.