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[Featured Discussion] Flat health heal on hit item. why not?
- Life StealとLife on Hit、Life per Health の話題
- Force of Natureの削除とその理由、代わりアイテムの追加
- Warmog's Armorの変更
- ニッチなアイテムの良い例と悪い例（Spirit VisageとIonic Spark、Manamune）
I was thinking a flat health on hit item belongs in the game.
Similar to the way malady does magic damage on hit, an item that heals for a flat amount instead of percentage based like life steal does.
I think it would add build diversity to the game for characters that need some sustain but build attack speed instead of damage.
As long as its balanced correctly vs life steal I cant see why not.
You know we're already experimenting with alternate sustain mechanics like Blade of the Ruined King - which is effectively a form of life steal that doesn't really care about how much damage you have (only have much Penetration you have and the target's health.)
Life on Hit will most likely find its way onto Doran's Blade to get rid of items with small amounts of Life Steal from being rampant. Other small %'s of Life Steal from masteries and runes will probably stay where it is. This has the effect of cancelling a little bit of the Doran's Blade snowball from crits - but also ensure that the Bruiser stacking Doran's Blade to snowball out will also get a bit of reverse snowball as the item doesn't scale into late game.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31101523#31101523
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Since we are talking about Lifesteal and its variants. I had suggested on another forum thread a variant of Lifesteal instead of healing a % of the damage you deal, instead you heal a % of your Maximum Health each time you AutoAttack.
This stat 'Heal a % of your maximum health on strike' is probablly one of the most fun statistics in PvE games - because you get all this intricate crunchy stuff trying to proc it and such and optimizing the heal versus the proc rate, etc.
In a PvP game, this number optimization is actually kind of detrimental to overall flow - because you don't have the luxury of crunchy build optimization. You have to win now against the opponents you have now, with the build you have now. Is Attack Damage more important? Is Resists? Is Health? Build that.
Basically, it's one of those statistics that have a ton of conditionals riding on it that tend to make it unstable and actually kind of annoying when you don't have perfect item build control.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31102023#31102023
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This item would still be really good for the max hp tanks like Shen volibear Mundo and sejuani. They already get their damage from hp so why not heal of it too?
There's a difference between scaling off health and scaling on procs for survivability versus damage.
On the one hand, there are abilities that scale off health. If I get damage for more health, that makes health more appealing for example. But a proc that scales off attack speed and health, starts getting problematic because the goal is to become survivable. But now you have to figure out the right mix of attack speed, health and resistances to make that possible.
Contrast the damage to health scaling that Sejuani has - where health is simply a more cost-efficient stat and attractive stat because if you want damage and survivability, you'll pick up more health.
There's just too many conditionals for 'health based on max health based on attack speed' for it to feel quite right when you don't have perfect item control. Consider trying to figure out whether resistances or a giant's belt or a recurve bow will make you tankier and it gets really confusing.
Note that you could make the same argument for Life Steal as a whole - but I feel like Max Health tends to introduce cases where the resistances vs. health calculations get really odd - while for Carries and Lifesteal, the ideal route is just 'Go get more damage.'
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31103297#31103297
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making the heal effect a HoT would alleviate a large chunk of this. If it does its max health healing over the course of 2 seconds, with additional hits simply replacing with a new duration instead of stacking, you mostly remove attack speed from the equation.
This solution works but tends makes the effect less cool in a lot of ways. It flattens the interactions it can have which also tends to flatten why the stat was compelling in the first place.
There's some forms of balance that just completely make what was compelling bland and uninteresting. They work at solving the problem but the sacrifice is a bit much in some cases.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31103824#31103824
Hm. This probably isn't a good time to mention that I removed FoN and scattered its various passives and pieces to the wind onto other items.
On the plus side though, Tanks now get to build Warmog's and not feel silly.
Although you'll still be able to build every piece of FoN used to offer. It just won't be rolled up into the particular stat combination. This counts against my spoiler count for the day. :P
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31104797#post31104797
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But in an unrelated question, is mordekaiser going to be playable in S3?
Quite honestly, I have no idea. There's a lot of moving parts here on changes.
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Was the magic resistance/healing too much, was it the speed, or was the item lack-luster. Sorry, I just like to know the reasoning behind changes.
Force of Nature served three purposes, one of which we couldn't make good.
1. High end MR item on one item.
We're not sure that a single rushed item should counter mages so heavily. So buying FoN for raw magic resistance was always going to be somewhat of a trap because we could never make it *good* to have this much MR on a single item without it simply being cost-inefficient so it could be slot-efficient.
There are ways to make an item cost-inefficient for selfish MR while still making it cost-efficient as a whole for MR though...
2. Regeneration/Siege
This we liked, but the fact that it was tied to a movement speed item and a magic resist item was a little weird. It didn't quite seem to click, so tanks that had to itemize regeneration kind of picked up a bunch of stats randomly.
Also, the tri-fecta of Warmogs / Spirit Visage / FoN was actually incredibly hard to get a good sense of balance. Mostly because it turns "on" super-late but mostly because they build on each other a little too much. While we like the build of 'I am unstoppable brick wall of regeneration' - we think that right now it's both really hard to get *and* overpowered when finished and we'd really like to see it be a more viable build that's more in line when it does happen so people feel like they aren't taking long-gambits but more of a choice on how to itemize.
3. Movement Speed
The whole paradigm of X class gets a MS item Y is actually starting to show where the faults are. In order to specialize for movement speed, you have to build into a very specific item - which naturally creates this weird power gap where a class that is perfectly catered by item Y gets MS while every other class pays a gold tax of unwanted stats to get the same mobility. This naturally leads to people wanting more MS/X items for a specific class - which seems to suggest that maybe what people actually want is more ubiquitous movement options that don't consume slots rather than a continuous stream of one-off items with MS% randomly on it.
For example, Lich Bane is the AP item with movement speed on it. That kind of screws every AP caster who doesn't want Lich Bane or can't use it well. This leads to this weird case where randomly, some class of characters get faster just because they can use Lich Bane well. While it's nice to have a few items like this - it's probably a sign as a whole that people want to be able to somehow spend more gold to get mobility rather than they want catered items that have MS on the item.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31104906#31104906
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Will there be something to replace this item in a similar way? I enjoyed building this item on Cho'Gath due to the synergy with Chogath's natural high HP.
Of course. We know MR itemization is kind of painful right now because you have to build a bunch of null-magic mantle items in order to get MR.
However, simultaneously, we do recognize that a single large MR item hurts AP Casters far more than any other class, simply because of the sheer efficiency of linear resistances versus linear damage scaling on AP.
Thus, the problem is two-fold: Make enough MR items such that every class feels good about needing to buy some off-items for MR.
Two: Make sure that the MR is wide-spread enough such that one rushed item doesn't hard-counter mages.
There's a bunch of sub-goals involved in figuring out which core items can go on what characters in order to fill their MR needs and retuning some of our current MR itemization to simultaneously be less abusive when stacking pure resists but actually a decent MR choice. (BV, for example, suffers from the spell shield cooldown being super long.)
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31123609#31123609
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BVs cooldown is perfectly fine, Linken's Sphere is just broken in DOTA with the 20 sec cooldown. Also, it's not OK to counter mages with 1 item according to you, but it's fine to counter ADs with 1 item (Frozen Heart anyone?). That item is just purely overpowered, 100 armor, CDR and an AS slow which is UNCOUNTERABLE in one item is just madness.
If by uncounterable you mean 'Make less effective' - then yes. Frozen Heart is effectively uncounterable. Frozen Heart may be overpowered - sure. But that's a different discussion from 'Frozen Heart is fundamentally uncounterable.'
Vayne or Kog'maw don't suddenly just dissappear because your team has 2 or 3 Frozen Hearts. It just takes them an extra three seconds to destroy your entire team, as ranged carries are about sustained damage.
Contrast this with ability power mages - whose primary function is to typically provide large amounts of area of effect damage in as short a time frame as possible. High amounts of slot-efficient magic resistance typically tends to be a much harder counter to mages due to the bursty nature of their damage.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31125316#31125316
An Armor / Attack Speed Item
- AS/AR アイテムのメカニズム
- Madred's Bloodrazorの問題点
So essentially, you'd be making an item for Lee Sin/Udyr/Shyv/Irelia - which immediately jumps at the question of 'Do they actually need this item?'
Currently, I'm at the opinion that while yes, there is a void here - it's probably an okay void to have unless we're somehow trying to make early armor viable on AD carries.
That said, in the jungle, attack speed / armor is really appealing on pretty much everyone who jungles - So if an item were to be made along these stat lines, the large bulk of the item's gold value would probably go towards being jungle-related to help autoattack bruisers transition better into the mid / late game, rather than a lane dominance item with AS/AR.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31101163#post31101163
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You are describing Bloodrazor.
Just buff that.
I'd rather not. MBR is trying to do too many things at once to be good. A raw buff doesn't help when it's main difficulty is it has both too many stats and also can't be cheap because then it competes with Wriggle's. While it's probably a very good idea to have an item compete with Wriggle's lantern - it probably doesn't actually help all that much to be in the exact same line as Wriggle's.
MBR's main problem is that it effectively kills itself due to always being sub-optimal in some regard, no matter who builds it - outside of Warwick, I suppose. You could raw buff it until the sub-optimality parts go away by sheer virtue of being overpowered but I don't think you've solved anything there - you've just kind of made it outshine a bunch of other items, unfortunately because it's still not performing a new niche, just three old ones sub-optimally.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31101274#31101274
An item being niche is more often a bad thing that a good thing - unless the niche is readily identifiable at first glance - then the niche is okay. It's about how readily the niche communicates itself.
For example, Spirit Visage is a niche item built to cater characters with strong self-healing effects. That's probably fine as any character can look at that and go 'Well, no self-heals here, I can ignore that.'
Ionic Spark, however, is not a good niche item to have, mostly because it looks like a good item. It feels like a good item. And then 95% of the time, you're doing it wrong if you buy it.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31102078#31102078
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Because with something like Ionic and Manamune for example, they're so niche that you almost never see them, and as you said, they're suboptimal in nearly all cases. What was the point of having them in the first place? I'm pretty certain that even back when it was created, mana is almost never an issue for AD's past the laning phase. And Ionic Spark seems outclassed by so many other options.
Keep in mind what I said 'It looks like a good item. It feels like a good item.' This rings true even in development.
When we set out to make something - it's very easy for us to be convinced that something *is* a good item. Time only tells what happens after release though and whether the qualities we thought were important was actually good.
Basically, they looked like good ideas at the time and they felt like good ideas / tested okay but players are far more keen and they conduct far more tests.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31103347#31103347
Can we have longer ward duration?
- WardとMasteryの関係
Because warding is better 'if they have the mastery' - and so people can justify not buying wards and piling the expense on the poor guy who picked it up.
But I agree, ward expenses are a pain.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31101243#post31101243
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The downsides: Increases theoretical income by 3 gold per minute when compared to 2/GP10 if all you bought was wards. Frankly, you can cry IMBA all you want, but that only comes to a difference of 105 gold in a 35 minute game. If the player has spent the 8 points to unlock the mastery, and the further 4 to max it out, I say we let them have the extra gold.
The downside is similar to the other ward downside - Any time you make a ward mastery that confers permanent bonuses you actually create huge disincentives for any other class to begin warding due to a decision made before the game stats.
The importance of warding and vision most often depends on the context of the game you are currently in, so having pre-game masteries determine who wards in-game or not (especially since masteries are hidden information) makes these kinds of solutions kind of odd.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31124961#31124961
Lord Van Damms pillager moved to summoned rift
- Lord Van Dam's PillagerがSummoner's Riftに追加されない理由
- AD CasterとAD AssassinのItemizationの違い
- Skill Vampのバランス調整の難しさ
Pillager needs to be on SR. It works so well with a lot of bruisers.
I'm just going to bite the bullet and say this is pretty much the reason why Pillager shouldn't touch SR ever; unless you want every Bruiser build to start with 'First, get your pillager and then get your second Heart of Gold.' Also, because every Bruiser ever has this - you can pretty much say goodbye to any pure AD caster as there's very little reason to take them over a Bruiser with Pillager. A Bruiser with Pillager will simply far outclass anything an AD Caster will ever do with it - mostly because SV/CDR don't actually work on pure assassins to begin with.
And the portion of the game it would help them the most, the lane sustain part, is also inaccessible because Pillager is a high-tier item. Paying 3k to be able to sustain in lane seems pretty poor if SV/CDR don't actually help you in fights as an assassin. Pillager essentially turns every AD Caster into a Bruiser and every Bruiser into a Beast beyond imaginable, which is fine - but you have to remember that at the end of the day, the game has to be balanced... so.. something has to give. :x
As to why it's not a problem on Twisted Treeline - there's a couple of factors that prevent Pillager from being crazy out of line on TT as it would be on SR:
1. Heart of Gold isn't good on Twisted Treeline. You don't hold onto Heart of Gold for that long. The Gold per 5 gain is pretty minimal from the item itself.
2. Flat Armor Penetration is great *if* you can reliably count on a target to reduce down to minimal armor. However, on Twisted Treeline, survivability is almost always a given - thus your target selection is poor. While there *might* be a hyper-carry comp in some games, you're probably going to run into a slugfest more often or not.
3. Items, in general, need to be far stronger on TT than SR in a lot of cases to compensate for the fact that certain classes don't do anything to each other in a 3v3 setting versus a 5v5 setting. This is why a lot of the 'long grindy' items tend to need to be stronger - there's just less damage overall. This is also why SV/CDR makes a lot more sense on TT - fights drag out longer because there's just less overall damage floating around. (Recall SV / Dominion in the time where all fights were 1 on 1 or 2 on 2. SV was king and almost unbeatable on champions that could utilize it. There simply wasn't enough damage floating around to counteract the effect of single target SV - Go go Akali!)
4. I'm not really sure the item is actually okay on TT. XD
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31103459#post31103459
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Also, AD Casters aren't by necessity assassins, it's just how many of them worked thus far.
You're right in that it's *not* by necessity. However, let's take a look at how AD Casters are structured.
1. You get the majority of your damage from spells.
2. You don't get many opportunities to autoattack because your kit doesn't allow you to stick.
3. Your autoattack is, however, amazing, because of all this AD you're building.
That kind of paradigm naturally pushes AD Casters into being assassins.
If #1 wasn't true, you're an autoattack based fighter, as you get very little damage from spells. You're not really a Caster at this point.
If #2 isn't true, you're probably best as an auto-attack based fighter. As you can stick and can build damage - so you can probably rely on base damages and also hammer autoattacks off for maximum DPS, would means you should build tank rather than focusing on AD. You'd have to have zero base damage and amazing AD scaling for a sustained AD Caster Bruiser to work. While this isn't unheard of (Riven with BT/GA, for example, is in this paradigm) - it creates a host of other problems, such as - you are incredibly snowbally as a champion.
If #3 isn't true, you're not an Attack Damage character.
Because all 3 are typically true on an AD Caster character, they get rapidly hemmed into high damage burst combos that scale really well off AD with zero sticking power - which Assassin naturally fits the best in.
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Then why does this item exist on TT? Bruisers are the one class that didn't need help there.
As to why specifically the item exists on TT, you'll have to ask Nome directly on that. I assume he was just trying to give Bruisers a damage!/survivability route rather than straight survivability/survivability route. Because honestly, the major difficulty in 3v3 maps is that since we balance defenses around a 5v5 game - 3v3 maps have this weird tendency to degrade into 3 brick walls hitting each other ineffectively.
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Would an item with only +ad and +spellvamp be an option to provide AD based assassins or casters
The major problem is that Spell Vamp is only good for AD casters *in lane*, for a lot of cases. The average time you are alive in a team fight, assuming you haven't completely run away with the game is so short as to make the amount of Spell Vamp you have inconsequential to your survivability. Mostly because you can't build the resistances that would actually make it worth it.
Contrast, Shyvana, who has 80 Armor / Magic Resistance during her Ultimate and is getting much more payoff from the Spell Vamp in general because she's geared as a sustained damage bruiser.
AD Casters have enough of a problem scaling into late game as is, without introducing an item that has a trap stat for the late game. :/
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31103698#31103698
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Urgot will never get his Spell Vamp AD Caster item...because everyone thinks Assassins are the only AD Casters.
ENDLESS MISERY
Well, there's a choice of two miseries for Urgot - you get to pick one!
1. Urgot never gets "his" SV/AD Item.
2. Bruisers with the SV/AD item destroy Urgot with "his" item.
Although - actually, maybe one day we'll go back and do champion specific items to add new ways to play existing champions - but that project is kind of a pipe dream that's at least like 1+ years old at this point.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31104348#31104348
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Speaking of AD Assassin Itemization, Has there been any useful ( for design purposes) data on how assassins are building in Twisted Treeline? Has there any preference to say, Blade of the Ruined King over Sanguine blade?
From what I've seen (and keep in mind this is completely anecdotal, just from watching the climb to Diamond from 3/4 teams) straight-up AD Assassins are pretty bad in Twisted Treeline.
Mostly because they're really bad at the early fights and have to build glass to be effective.
Ideally, you want someone who is good at team fights from level 1 *or* the ability to nullify the opponent's ability to engage / force a fight so you can farm out the game. Those are the two dominant strategies I've seen - but things might change.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31104488#31104488
Every single time we mention Mana/SV around here, someone's eyes light up - there's a pause and then says 'Ryze' like some revelation from on high.
So yeah. It'd be kind of a tricky item.
Honestly, if Mana *and* Sustain is an issue on a lot of these characters, my gut reaction is to go back and making Catalyst/BV decent again on them and seeing what it would take for that. That might mean that we experiment with an AD + Catalyst Item? It might be neat but it'll have to wait for the first round of changes before we iterate some more.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31104569#31104569
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If SV was made source-unique for items (as in, you'll get only the highest SV amount of all the SV items you took), he'd trade damage for survivability, due to you having lowered his mana ratios and upped his AP ratios.
SV being source-unique makes every SV item and WoTA look incredibly awkward in a lot of cases. That and I'm not sure SV being source-unique solves things much.
The problem with SV is that ideally, when you have SV, you have a huge amount of resistances or some other kind of multiplicative synergy with it to make it good. This is because SV works off abilities, which typically grow linearly as the game progresses. Life Steal doesn't have this problem as the thing it drains off of, is itself exponential with game length. So to make SV as awesome as LS, you go SV + Resists or SV + Another Healing effect from AP. To make LS more awesome, you just keep building damage.
This makes SV an incredibly odd stat to balance as any % will look incredibly off depending on how high the linear damage is. LS doesn't suffer from this. If you gave 80% Life Steal to an early game Ashe - she doesn't really feel too abusive because she deals zero damage and drains 80% of zero. If you gave 80% Life Steal to a late game Ashe, she still doesn't really feel that abusive because it's all overflow healing and she blows up in a second.
SV, on the other hand, when it's good, is always found with something that makes a character naturally tanky - which leads to all sorts of oddities.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31104751#31104751
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However, I've also never come to any other conclusion except that spell vamp absolutely needs tailoring to specific heroes, there's no way for it to work in a balanced manner otherwise because of the simple nature of spell variety. Targetables vs. skill shots, high dmg high cd vs low dmg low cd, contextual interactions, too many variables to justify giving a flat value and saying all is well. At the very least, different tiers of SV within the cast need to be made.
This is a very intuitive way to explain why SV is a difficult stat to balance. What works for one class is bound to cause problems for another class just because spells are the most varied things in our game - of course it'd be the one which has the weirdest and most complicated interactions to balance.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31105071#31105071
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AD/Crit Jayce. W means no AS necessary.
I'm pretty sure AD/Crit Jayce's pattern is the same as any single-target assassin. Look at a dude. Hit 'W'. Look at the fine bloody mist where there used to be a champion.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31123687#31123687
stinger NEEDS to build into an ad item
- Stingerにまつわるメカニズム
If you want attack speed and CDR on a phys champion, buy a Stinger. The CDR is incredibly inexpensive on it, and the fact that it doesn't have an uber end game item you want doesn't matter because you won't need to upgrade it in the vast majority of games. Don't get caught up on needing to finish big items before buying anything else. With boots, you have 5 item slots to work with. Don't be scared to use them all.
While this is theoretically true from a standpoint - and works for some of our dead-end mid-tier upgrades - this doesn't work when you bring in the concept of Item Premiums for items that *already have upgrades.*
That is, tier 2/3 upgrades typically have massive amounts of bonus gold per statistic because they are harder to build and epic tier. If you spend 4000 gold on infinity edge. for example, you get something like 2000 extra gold worth of free stats.
This is the *true* cost you pay when you have mid-tier items like Stinger. You're simply not gold-efficient building piece-meal. And the incredible discrepancy between the gold efficiency of high-tier items and mid-tier items makes it less a factor of 'Do I have an item for end-game' and more a factor of 'God. Stinger is not cost-efficient at all compared to X' Haunting Guise for example, is incredibly gold efficient with zero upgrades. Haunting Guise is a perfectly good item to sit around in your inventory if you have free slots. Stinger, however, has a Nashor's tooth upgrade and so Stinger isn't incredibly cost-efficient on its own.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31104882#post31104882
@Xypherous RE: Nashors Tooth on Oriana\Nautilus
- Nashor's Toothの現状と問題点、および将来の可能性
That said I do hope the Malady / Nashor's Tooth builds get a little better in S3 - just because of slightly better synergies / some premium tuning.
Edit: Item Premiums are how much better an item gets when you complete better versions of them. Basically, if you spend 3400 Gold on Blasting Wands and 3400 Gold on a Deathcap, how much bonus gold value you gain because you had to complete a recipe.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31103866#31103866
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Hey Xypherous, on the topic of Nautilus and Attack Speed, does he actually lose damage by getting his attack speed over 1 attack per second?
Nautilus never loses damage by having more attack speed. In fact, Attack Speed is a pretty nutty way of doing a lot of damage with him, were it not for the little problem of having to actually keep the shield up while you do all that anchor swinging.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31105102#31105102
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